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Post by Maria on Jun 30, 2021 19:05:32 GMT
Just before starting this - CONTENT WARNING - talking about and mentioning transphobic thoughts and attitudes.
I've been thinking about the images and media that we would all have seen growing up and in our early lives, and how that might contribute to how we feel about our trans identities.
For me, for example, I think I would say I had basically no positive exposure to transgender issues until I went looking for them. Growing up, I think I can probably recount everything that I saw which had anything to do with crossing the gender binary: Carry On films - quite often in these a male character would have to dress as a woman for some reason - it was always played for laughs, normally the other characters saying how attractive they thought the crossdresser was (not in a good way) and then the character getting into an awkward situation (eg a female character asking them to help them get changed). An article I remember seeing the headline of in a newspaper called "My dad is a woman", with a large photo which was thoroughly unflattering and very much showed him looking like a balding man in a dress, rather than someone who had in any way transitioned. The newspaper was the Daily Mail, which for anyone who doesn't know it is very right-wing and has a reputation for not exactly being tolerant of anyone who is in any way different. (What's sad is that I remember feeling really excited when I first saw the headline and what it was all about. Then as I went through, realising that this was definitely not something I should be excited about, or talk about, or have anything to do with ever, because it was so incredibly not normal, and why would anybody ever do that). A segment on a show called Noel Edmond's House Party, in which they got a guy on to interview him because "he likes to sit around the house in his bikini". They then got him to dress up in it on the show, on national prime-time TV. Definitely not supportive, very much a "look everyone, look at the freak" kind of TV viewing. (Again, this is sad because I remember them saying about him being a guy wearing a bikini and feeling excited and thinking "You can do that?! When I have a house of my own, I'm going to do that!!" and then by the end being acutely aware of quite how "wrong" and "freakish" that was, and knowing that I could never do that, because there was nothing "wrong" with me, unlike him. I wonder what happened to the guy from the show, I hope he was OK afterwards. And I wonder what kid-me would have thought if they'd known that I would grow up to do just that one day!)
Now thankfully attitudes etc have changed a LOT, and mostly for the better, in the 20+ years since I had those experiences. But I wondered what depictions and representation anyone else saw in their younger years, that may have skewed how they saw these issues. Or did anyone actually see anything that had anything positive to say about transgender and gender-nonconforming people!
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Post by Jessica on Jun 30, 2021 21:25:26 GMT
I totally agree. Every mention of trans-ness was done as a punchline growing up. The trans character in Ace Ventura for example. She was not played off as a "man in a dress", I am certain the actress was a cis woman, but Jim Carays reaction after he discovered his kissed a "man" was so wildly over the top and played for laughs.
I cant think of a single positive transgender role model growing up. I remember seeing one single 20-20 segment of a racecar driver that got in a crash and it was discovered he was wearing panties and he transitioned after that. That was a serious story and wasn't played for laughs. But that is literally the only thing I can think of that wasn't played off as perverted or a joke from my youth that I didn't seek out myself.
Thank goodness I found more positive examples on the internet. I have to think the WWW has been an oustanding resource for the current generation to feel good about themselves.
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Post by Maria on Jun 30, 2021 22:50:48 GMT
I know I watched that film growing up, but I don't remember that ending at all. The only reason I know about it is because it's mentioned in a book that I'm reading at the moment. If it was played as a punchline though, then I'm guessing that as it was treated the same as those other instances of transgender that I saw, then I just lumped it in with those in my mind and moved on. If it was a serious story, was it reported with respect, or as more of a "well here's something you don't see everyday..." sort of story? For all of it's faults, the internet definitely has some massive perks, the ability to research and connect with likeminded people being just two of them
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Post by Lily on Jul 1, 2021 1:23:23 GMT
I totally agree. Every mention of trans-ness was done as a punchline growing up. The trans character in Ace Ventura for example. She was not played off as a "man in a dress", I am certain the actress was a cis woman, but Jim Carays reaction after he discovered his kissed a "man" was so wildly over the top and played for laughs. I cant think of a single positive transgender role model growing up. I remember seeing one single 20-20 segment of a racecar driver that got in a crash and it was discovered he was wearing panties and he transitioned after that. That was a serious story and wasn't played for laughs. But that is literally the only thing I can think of that wasn't played off as perverted or a joke from my youth that I didn't seek out myself. Thank goodness I found more positive examples on the internet. I have to think the WWW has been an oustanding resource for the current generation to feel good about themselves. Your mention of Ace Ventura. That just triggered a memory. I've never seen the whole movie, perhaps it was on TV and I just caught the end. I now distinctly remember being fascinated by the trans woman in that scene, and how that I wasn't repulsed like the scene said that I should be, it was definitely more "Well I wouldn't mind trying out what she's done". I was reminded about transphobia by a tweet I saw today, one that wasn't trans friendly. There was this sketch show by two UK comedians Vic Reeves and Bob Mortimer, and one of the running sketches were these two unattactive middle-aged working class men, who would berate passers-by for looking down their tops and peering at their bras, even though they were totally covered up wearing typically dull working man's clothes. Another one is from the Mighty Boosh, a surreal UK sitcom. In one of the episodes there's a character called Old Greg. He's set up to be this legendary fish that is really difficult to catch, however when he appears, he is a fish-man with a moustache wearing a tutu saying that he has a "mangina". Though the character is given opportunity to express how he didn't fit in at school, he is seen as a bit of a joke because of how he is. Though maybe not strictly a trans character it still falls into the broader category of prejudice against the non-binary. One perhaps more positive example, though all a bit metaphysical is from Doctor Who. In one of the episodes from the '70s this ancient god Kronos is conjured forth, he takes the form of a squawking man in a bird costume. Near the very end of the story after the main threat has ended, Kronos appears no longer in their old male form, but as an omniprescent eloquent woman, who explains how she can take many forms. In keeping with the ethos of the show, this is accepted as a matter of fact, and not at all weird, and that this is just who Kronos is. The biggest positive I can think of though is from the same show. The main character the Doctor can regenerate when they are killed, this is so when the actor wishes to leave they can continue on the show. Though the actor changed the Doctor had always regenerated into a white man, with only age and personality changing. However the last time the regeneration happened the 12th Doctor changed from being a man in his 50's (hello!) to a woman in her 30s. They don't make too much of a deal of the gender change in the storylines. However they did occaisonally reference the adjustment she had to make, and how she was treated so differently now that she was female presenting. Both of those examples are clearly not the norm, both having either mythical or scientific explanations for the change, so aren't as strong as a positive portrayal of a real trans woman. Nonetheless they at least give a positive spin on the change from being a man to a woman.
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Post by Maria on Jul 1, 2021 11:03:24 GMT
That's really interesting that you had such a different reaction to that scene to what I suppose was probably expected to be the "normal" reaction. A bit like my reactions in the TV segment and newspaper article (or at least my reaction up until the media conditioning had its intended effect on me and I pushed those desires down).
I was thinking more about this last night before I went to sleep, about trans issues in comedy and where exactly does the line sit. For example those Carry On films definitely put across the view that if you are born male and you put on a dress, that is something to laugh at. But if we were to change it slightly - so now in our comedy film there is a group of friends, some of who are trans, and some of who are cis. One night they are talking about the first time they tried dressing, and one of the cis boys admits he's never tried wearing any women's clothes, as he's never had the desire. Alcohol has been consumed, and the rest of them decide it would be funny for him to try it now, with them. He comes out wearing a dress that doesn't quite fit him properly, he does look a bit silly, and he feels a bit silly too because he ISN'T trans, and therefore isn't experiencing anything positive from this. But it's a supportive environment, the friends have a little giggle with (not at) him, and they move on. Now, is that scene still transphobic? It's essentially the same scene, but just in a different context, and I would argue that if done correctly then no, it isn't offensive. Yes, it is having a giggle at a man in a dress, but in a way that has made it VERY clear that it is a MAN in a dress, not a woman in a man's body in a dress, if that makes sense? And by the presence of the other trans characters, it establishes that if that IS your identity, then there is nothing wrong with it. Maybe I'm overthinking things lol.
Doctor Who fan *squeal*. I have watched it ever since they used to put the omnibuses on UKTV Gold on a Sunday morning. I was very excited when it was announced Jodie Whittaker would be the new Doctor for this very reason. At the risk of side-tracking this into a Doctor Who fan thread - I personally think Jodie Whittaker is great in the role, however I do think that after 11 other transformations into males, the fact that this time was different deserved some sort of an explanation. So from that perspective I think they could have handled it better. There again, I'm not really a fan of what Chris Chibnall has done, so I'll just pop that on top of my other lists of constructive criticisms of the last two series.
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Post by chloé on Jul 1, 2021 11:37:30 GMT
Hi, The trans identity is taken in the media with all the variety of culture, religion and history. Today in occidental countries it’s better than before but with a lot of differences. Look at hungaria, russia… they have a big problem with the trans. It’ against the story of their countries build on strenght. In the official medias. It is still difficult for trans. In media like cinema, books, it changed a lot. Look at the film SAM, zerophilia, switch. At the end being a woman after being a man is showed as a not so bad thing, even good thing with the pregnacy in switch. Don’t avoid cleo and leo movie, old but I enjoyed. Being transformed in a woman was a curse, a punishment, a bad luck. In a lot of book, the situation changed too, before it was only deviant now it is showed as an opprtunity ( ranma1/2, family compo as manga) and my favorite. A woman passion of alan barry. Jessica, you must read this book!!! The image of trans changed but not in the official communication, and worse with religion because it is against the reproduction. And don’t forget the strenght of the web, tgcomics, I love, sapphirefoxxbeyond, and all the patreons, some of them are really caricaturals but they exists and open a world for people whose identity is difficult but also to real deviant people. And youtube with magic remote. Once again finishibg with pregnancy.
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Post by Lily on Jul 1, 2021 11:50:08 GMT
Replying to Maria's last post
That reaction to Ace Ventura might have been down to our age perhaps. I acknowldedged the desire to be like her but also wasn't entirely comfortable with it either.
I think it would be a scene worth depicting in that it shows what the difference is, what trans ness is. It shows that it isn't about putting on a dress and acting womanly, it's about putting on clothes that you want to be who you are. That the cis guy is uncomfortable because that isn't who he is, and if written correctly the mild giggles at him would be OK.
A Doctor Who thread needs to be created I think. I don't much like the Chibnall era either, particularly those written by himself. I think you're right they should have put an explanation in. It was a hugely significant change for the character that after all those other regenerations they were now female. The focus was always about what a change it was for the show, rather than the character. Peter Capaldi had a scene as to why he looked how he did, so if wouldn't have been unprecedented either. Chibnall rightly cast a woman in the role of the Doctor, but it is clear that he was not interested as to why it had happened to the character. It was done for the representation of women in media, and not the representation of trans characters in the show. Something they still haven't ever really done IIRC. They had a trans female horse in the Matt Smith era and that's been it. I feel I could only have ever written that last sentence about Doctor Who. Wonder what the others are making of this?
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Post by Maria on Jul 1, 2021 12:41:07 GMT
They are probably just thinking we are crazy brits! 😂 which... no comment lol.
I will make a Doctor Who thread later (or you can 🙂) unless you reckon it's a bit niche and would be better off in a private message thread?
Right now I've actually remembered for once that it's Thursday, which makes tomorrow bin day, so I should go and sort that out now. Normally I only realise this at about midnight and then have to hurry through it so I can get to bed, and normally miss things that should have gone out. So I'm quite proud of myself 😀 I wonder if because my mind is spending less effort on repressing now, that it has more resources to put towards being a functional adult 😂
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Post by Lily on Jul 1, 2021 13:43:12 GMT
Make it a thread, it's a popular enough show, and one day other sisters may join that are also DW fans. Jessica seems quite happy for us to talk about anything we want on here too. You can make it. I've nothing burning in my mind about it at the moment. You'll see I've other things to talk about today On your last point that's very worthy of note. I think that this must be the case, you have literally freed your mind up to do other things
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Post by chloé on Jul 1, 2021 13:53:48 GMT
Doctor Who is really english, in France not a lot of success. Too english for the frogs we are.
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Post by Lily on Jul 1, 2021 15:07:05 GMT
It is particularly British, I agree. It does have a strong international following though, even if not in France, but obviously more so in English-speaking countries. One of the most highly regarded stories of Doctor Who, "City of Death" was partly filmed in Paris. The plot is based partly around the theft of the Mona Lisa. Though the villain is someone that only looks like he's a man, it's that he's really a green alien under his human disguise, and not a woman
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Post by Jessica on Jul 2, 2021 1:55:27 GMT
I know I watched that film growing up, but I don't remember that ending at all. The only reason I know about it is because it's mentioned in a book that I'm reading at the moment. If it was played as a punchline though, then I'm guessing that as it was treated the same as those other instances of transgender that I saw, then I just lumped it in with those in my mind and moved on. If it was a serious story, was it reported with respect, or as more of a "well here's something you don't see everyday..." sort of story? For all of it's faults, the internet definitely has some massive perks, the ability to research and connect with likeminded people being just two of them The racecar driver story was reported as a "here is something you don't see every day" type of story. But it was taken seriously and the woman they were talking too was treated with dignity and respect. Which might be the only time I saw that as a kid. The thing I remember most about it, weirdly enough, is that they played the song "A Change Would Do You Good" by Sheryl Crow as the background music haha. I wish I could go back and find that story and see if it was presented the way I remember it.
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Post by Jessica on Jul 2, 2021 2:00:03 GMT
Here is another thing from my past that I remember watching over and over again.....
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Post by Maria on Jul 2, 2021 10:35:48 GMT
Here is another thing from my past that I remember watching over and over again..... I wish it was that easy Although I've never had Mountain Dew - maybe I should try some while standing next to a truck and see what happens
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Post by Jessica on Jul 2, 2021 14:31:42 GMT
Hey.....its worth a try Maria hahahaha.
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